Curse

Yawgmoth · Apr 03, 2009, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Nox

XTH is a good idea generally, but u just get to much for it...
something like 20k / month /account should be maximum

Don't be surprised when it will become reality - Zaishen Key price will only go down every month, and it may even drop that low.

If nothing will be done, Zaishen Keys price and value of drops from the chest will drop so pathetically low that the extra free wealth everyone will get for free per account every month will be marginal. The economy will continue to balance itself so that what's common and free will have little value. ZKeys will be worth less and less, gains from having 20+ accounts won't make people rich anymore...
...And who will lose the most?
Ofcourse the PvP players!

Compare this to farming:
PvP players play fair game and get rewards at a relatively fair rate, best get the most, all require work, almost nothing is for free. They 'farm' the Zaishen Keys in a fair way, producing very limited amounts of them, as it requires winning, and not everyone can win.

And then an extremelly lame abuse 'farming' method comes, allowing everyone completely clueless about PvP to get the same rewards PvP players get for active play and victories. This 'farm' requires NO skill, just a few clicks and guaranteed win, and it's multiplied by the number of accounts owned ($$ spent). So more and more people get more and more accounts into this, like farmers flocking to a new farming spot, and drain it dry until the value of drops gets so low that farming becomes a waste of time. Farming spot drained dry and dead, time to move to a next one...
oh wait, there's no next one, oops.
And PvP players will continue to get the same rewards, now turned worthless...

... This has to be stopped before it's too late!

Remove XTH entirely, it's the best solution. Or completely rework it's prizes, change them to something not tradeable/transferable in any way - no benefits for one account from having 20 others; and completely different (not a substitute) from what active PvP play gives - PvP rewards should remain worthwhile. (exception - a pretty good XTH reward could be free unlocks at Priest of Balthazar, PvP players shouldn't qq about those and they at least may bring some fresh blood to PvP)

And lots of people here should be informed that more accounts sold for XTH abuse won't make our game better - don't expect Anet to devote more resources to the Live Team and better updates because of that. But the flood of Free ZKeys ruining our economy and killing value of rewards for active PvP play definately makes our game much worse.

Martin Alvito · Apr 03, 2009, 11:19 PM // 23:19

There are plenty of solutions other than simply removing XTH:

1) Lower the rewards dramatically, such that the time investment for picks is commensurate with the rate of in-game wealth generation

2) Generate a series of quests that must be completed each month to get XTH rewards on any given account, thus bringing the time investment per account back in line

3) Provide a different reward than TRPs, and create a redemption system for those rewards

4) Increase (dramatically) the rate at which zkeys can be earned through PvP.

All of those are potential solutions to the problem. They all revolve around the same principle: make picking the winners of mATs provide the same basic reward per unit of time invested as players' more efficient means of in-game wealth generation.

XTH is like legally duping zkeys. You buy a license from ANet, and they let you dupe a (relatively) fixed number of zkeys per the amount you invested in the license.

@ moriz: The next time you have a complaint about customer service in any area of your life, I will be laughing at you.

Bof · Apr 03, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Increase (dramatically) the rate at which zkeys can be earned through PvP.

O yes that would totally fix the problem. Make every good pvp player richer and dump even more zkeys into the zkey economy so the price drops even more dramatically.

A person with 50 accounts picking every single one of them right still gets less zkeys than the winners of gvg. Most people dont have 50 accounts and I guarantee that all of them dont pick them all exactly right to earn the 80 maximum keys.

The same thing happened with ecto when UW farming first started with perma sins. Ecto prices went down about 4x the amount they were worth. However, the XTH in terms of predictions has been around close to a year (give or take some time), and the price of zkeys went up when the title came and have only dropped 1k in price with all the new accounts you guys have been bitching about. Your not losing that much money on high priced items, and even if you could afford them you not hurting on ways to make money in the first place. XTH is helping way more people than it is hurting so stop QQing its not going away.

Michman · Apr 03, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

When I do a mission in GW I observe no harm to the game.
When I run someone to Sanctum Cay for some gold I observe no harm to the game.
When I do a dungeon with my guild mates I observe no harm to the game.
When I sit in Kamadan or LA and sell things I don't need I observe no harm to the game.
When I get on Guru and find a sword for sell for 1-5k just like it was a year ago before XTH rewards started I observe no harm to the game.
When I watch the Monthly GVG tournament and see Straight Outta Kamadan finally win a gold cape I observe no harm to the game. (oh btw congrats Mitch and KMD).
When I see PVPer's selling zkeys for 2k or less before XTH predictions began and now selling them for 4-5k I observe no harm to the game.
When I see players buying armor and weapons to fill their hall of monuments I observe no harm to the game.

I keep hearing about this massive influx of gold but I've yet to see that proven.
I keep hearing about PVPer's being harmed by XTH predictions yet I can't for the life of me see how it affects whether or not that player or guild wins or loses.
I keep reading posts from people with all their objections to XTH yet those same people are making their own XTH predictions.

Go figure.

Martin Alvito · Apr 03, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bof

Increase (dramatically) the rate at which zkeys can be earned through PvP.

O yes that would totally fix the problem. Make every good pvp player richer and dump even more zkeys into the zkey economy so the price drops even more dramatically.

Yes, the price would crash instantly. However, if the price takes a 90% nosedive, but you're making 10 times as many zkeys in the mAT, it's a wash. The big losers here are the guy getting keys from XTH, and the guys that invested in the Zaishen title prior to the buff.

All of the proposed solutions have distributional consequences, and those consequences all vary from simply removing XTH. The developer picks from the available options depending on what distributional consequences they prefer, and the relative labor cost associated with implementing the solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bof

A person with 50 accounts picking every single one of them right still gets less zkeys than the winners of gvg. Most people dont have 50 accounts and I guarantee that all of them dont pick them all exactly right to earn the 80 maximum keys.

Wrong. If you flawlessed the predictions, you get 250 TRPs. The winners of the mAT get 4500 each. Under this condition, 18 accounts will match the GvG mAT winners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bof

The same thing happened with ecto when UW farming first started with perma sins. Ecto prices went down about 4x the amount they were worth. However, the XTH in terms of predictions has been around close to a year (give or take some time), and the price of zkeys went up when the title came and have only dropped 1k in price with all the new accounts you guys have been bitching about.

First, you're bad at history. Ecto values went down about 30% and rebounded to the previous price when the permasins were nerfed.

Second, limited high end items go for 150%-400% of what they went for when XTH was introduced. I keep telling you, they're the canary in the coalmine. The prices on these items are bound to increase first because the supply does not increase. The prices on anything that the zchest does not drop will surely follow in time.

@ michman: The second point here is your proof. Last time that these prices went crazy? During the dupe. Lol at your argument about zkey prices going up after XTH's introduction. Perhaps the introduction of an emote and a title had something to do with that?

Yawgmoth · Apr 04, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Observant people: you clearly underestimate the devastating power that is in the XTH. Do you even know how many players still got no clue what it is? I'm really surprised but I keep meeting active and fairly wealthy players who got no clue what it is.

Last year the % of players who knew and used it was far smaller, so tiny it didn't cause any visible problem - amounts of free zkeys were much smaller than what PvP players generated through simply playing the game. But now it's going only one way - more and more players get more and more accounts into the system and every month is a giant flood wave that ruins the zkey value.

It will be only worse... if not fixed.

moriz · Apr 04, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

@ moriz: The next time you have a complaint about customer service in any area of your life, I will be laughing at you.

good, since i got plenty of laughs out of you. you are a very good at giving everyone good laughs over your ludicrous claims.

Improvavel · Apr 04, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

This thing about people spending money to get in game money being no skill would make much more sense if the drops weren't random.

You do something 1000 times. All crap drops. Someone goes with a team and get it done because of the team and get a great drop the first time he does it.

But yes, that guy has skill because he got a random drop while the other just buy it with zkeys.

Gogo random for skill.

Bof · Apr 04, 2009, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Wrong Again. 8 picks x 5 keys for GvG 8 picks x 5 keys for 1v1 is 80keys or 400 TRP for flawless. 4500 TRP / 5 is 900 keys. 900keys/ 80keys is 22.5k accounts needed and flawlessed to match the GVG winner only.

3 dailys per day 30 days in a months would be 1080 keys into the economy for just the winners of the dailys.

PvPers are dumping in a ton of a lot more than XTH is.

1. When duping was going on the price of High End items were in Ectos soo Zkeys have nothing to do with it. Even now High End items are not bought in Zkeys (well they could be) they are bought in Ectos still. Sorry if your paying for Zkeys, but the XTH only caused a minor increase the majority came from the mass of Keys coming from the monthly and the dailys.

If you looking in High End buying, just about every person buying is in a PvP guild because they are the ones who can afford the items. The people buying mutliple accounts for high amounts of keys are the ones who can probably pick correctly, and it would be reasonable for me to assume that they are PvP players. People that dont follow PvP have no clue how to pick (especially in 1v1 with all the IMO "cheating" going on with them).

Giving higher rewards for PvPers would hurt the PvPers more than the PvE players because most of the PvE players unless they are power traders dont have the Zkeys to buy High End stuff anyway.

Martin Alvito · Apr 04, 2009, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You do something 1000 times. All crap drops. Someone goes with a team and get it done because of the team and get a great drop the first time he does it.

But yes, that guy has skill because he got a random drop while the other just buy it with zkeys.

Gogo random for skill.

Yes, there's this thing called variance. There's also this thing called expected utility. Each farming run has a given average payoff. If I am more skilled than you and can do the run five times as fast, in the long run I make five times the amount you make given the same time investment.

People with lots of time to spend on the game are of course heavily advantaged, but that's true for anything else in life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bof

8 picks x 5 keys for GvG 8 picks x 5 keys for 1v1 is 80keys or 400 TRP for flawless. 4500 TRP / 5 is 900 keys. 900keys/ 80keys is 22.5k accounts needed and flawlessed to match the GVG winner only.

Dude, your math is whacked. Go read the rules. You get 250 TRPs for flawlessing either set of predictions, at least according to the link on the official wiki. You are correct that if you flawlessed both the GvG and the 1v1 that you would earn 500 TRPs, not just the 250 for flawlessing just the GvG (or 1v1) predictions.

But all that does is halve the minimum number of accounts needed to 9.

I've done the math on the influx of keys already earlier in the thread. XTH is (according to zweistein) dumping 3.5 MILLION keys into the economy each month. It just blows away the number released by PvP every month.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bof

1. When duping was going on the price of High End items were in Ectos soo Zkeys have nothing to do with it. Even now High End items are not bought in Zkeys (well they could be) they are bought in Ectos still. Sorry if your paying for Zkeys, but the XTH only caused a minor increase the majority came from the mass of Keys coming from the monthly and the dailys.

This is such a lol paragraph. I'll break it down:

Your first sentence is a non sequitur. Duping currencies causes the prices of other goods to rise. It's one of the easiest mathematical proofs in economics.

Your second sentence is patently false. I buy and sell stuff in and for zkeys all the time. Ectos and zkeys both spend, and are easily converted back and forth.

Your third sentence is just wrong. See above.

EDIT: Bof, the price of zkeys isn't changing because players value highly the points to title track. It's the price of everything ELSE that's changing...at least, the stuff that doesn't come out of the zchest.

Bof · Apr 04, 2009, 02:03 AM // 02:03

As Asp said on page 5 the prices of Z-Keys are going to changes regardless. The 3.5 Million keys per month can be compared to the ecto boom of the perma sins racking in a ton more than 3.5 million ecto per month. The price only dropped 2k then came back up when everyone got what they wanted. Same thing here people are going to get tons of keys and the price is going to drop, but it will stabalize when people are getting what they want. Whether XTH was here or not price were going to go down once people started going for the title more heavily. Zkeys have been out for a year and its only dropped 1k ecto drop 2k in 1 month. The 3.5million keys isnt affecting prices in the dramatic fashion people are making it out to be.

go cubs · Apr 04, 2009, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Question: why do pvp players need zkeys for money
The point of zkeys is to open chest...and now get title pts for it...and get pve skills...why I strict pvpers need cash???

Just a question....if your not strict pvp then money should be fairly easy to come by... I have 100k all the time which is not much at all...and I do about 50/50 of pvp and pve

Point of pvp is not for money

Improvavel · Apr 04, 2009, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Yes, there's this thing called variance. There's also this thing called expected utility. Each farming run has a given average payoff. If I am more skilled than you and can do the run five times as fast, in the long run I make five times the amount you make given the same time investment.

People with lots of time to spend on the game are of course heavily advantaged, but that's true for anything else in life.

And people that have more money also have the advantage.

The thing that is wrong is the concept of farming run. The need for farming run concept basically shows most of what is wrong in PvE.

In GW weapons and armors have max stats, so no weapon/armor is better or worse than another.

Its all about looks.

So there is no problem if all are the same rarity. The only problem in this game is if you want a certain weapon/armor skin and have to rely on "luck" and "repetition" (there goes the skill>time argument) to attain it.

Torment weapons and BMP weapons are a great example of how skins should be attained - by completion of a mission/task, not in random chest drop that only promotes "farming" and "mindless repetition" to score a "lucky drop", to basically get a weapon that is just as functional as whatever else.

You want a skin, you should be able to go and complete whatever tasks are demanded for it and get it in the end. Skill = reward.

As it is, we end with a game where PvE is basically grinding for titles and abusing game mechanics to grind for weapons.

We also end with a game where going to any major town is an aesthetically assault to your eyes.

So preserving that type of game to anyone that understand that a "title" or a "rare skin" means 0 about skill is quite pointless to anyone that knows that simple truth.

Keep the XTH, make all weapons inscribable, get upgrades and inscriptions npc traders, increase drop rate, destroy the farm builds based on certain "skills" exploits, etc.

Bring the mayhem.

The EoTN gloves are fuggly in most armor/character combination, vabbi female skirts are nice but suck with primeval boots and gladiator top (damn idiot no fashion sense pvpers, I like to see good games not puck) and some of the "top" weapons out there are just as ugly.

What is left are the "exclusive" minipets, most bought with money in the first place since they came with magazines. So who cares if you can't buy a mini pet anymore because some sob can pay for 1000 accounts and pay 1 billion (actually 1750) zkeys for it?

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO the economy - this a game about slaying mobs in PvE and beat the crap out of other human beings in PvP and then piss and dance on their "avatar" corpses.

Martin Alvito · Apr 04, 2009, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Improvavel, while that's one vision for the game, it's not the only one. I enjoy smashing people in PvP. I hate the PvE campaigns because they are obstacles that waste my time. After all, killing the monsters is about phat loot, amirite? The story can go hang. If I wanted story, I'd go play a Bioware game.

As I've argued earlier in the thread, I would LOVE to see an accomplishments = items system. It's easier to balance, you can always add more stuff to add new challenges, it's hard to RMT in such a system and impossible to use bots to generate money for RMT.

However, we're stuck with what we've got. Given that system, I'd like to see lots of nice options for trading in my loot. I'd also like to compete for the best loot on a level playing field, where the only constraints that bind are how fast you can make loot and how much time you have to spend getting loot. I won't win that competition, since I have a lot less time than others...but I can compensate for lack of time with ability.

Burning the existing system to the ground isn't the solution. Fixing the existing system for GW2 is. One can hope the devs are listening to us.

Firebaall · Apr 04, 2009, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by go cubs

Point of pvp is not for money

If that were 100% true, you wouldn't see the opposition so vehemenantly whine for the removal of the XTH.

If the XTH is removed then remove the obscene amount of tournament rewards as well for PvPers, that they receive for winning the mATS. You'll see a reversal of opinion on the vast majority here, trying to protect their cash cow.

While you're at it, nix those darn Championship point farmers too.

zwei2stein · Apr 04, 2009, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by go cubs

Question: why do pvp players need zkeys for money
The point of zkeys is to open chest...and now get title pts for it...and get pve skills...why I strict pvpers need cash???

Just a question....if your not strict pvp then money should be fairly easy to come by... I have 100k all the time which is not much at all...and I do about 50/50 of pvp and pve

Point of pvp is not for money

As PvPer, you need cash to operate guild

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

...Torment weapons and BMP weapons are a great example of how skins should be attained - by completion of a mission/task, not in random chest drop that only promotes "farming" and "mindless repetition" to score a "lucky drop", to basically get a weapon that is just as functional as whatever else...

You miss one thing.

First, if you create weapon which actually takes skill to get two things happen:

* People with required skill will get it lightning fast.
* People without required skill will never get it.

Both things separated create certain amount of whine, together .... there is mayhen.

Lourens · Apr 04, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

As PvPer, you need cash to operate guild

You dont need cash if you have all npcs and generous members

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

You miss one thing.

First, if you create weapon which actually takes skill to get two things happen:

* People with required skill will get it lightning fast.
* People without required skill will never get it.

Both things separated create certain amount of whine, together .... there is mayhen.

People that have skill deserve it imo

// BTW when can i get those march tournament reward points ^^ ?

¿Evan¿ · Apr 04, 2009, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Pretty much the worst idea ever, just a nonstop inflation. There needs to be some type of gambling aspect to it instead of just giving away free money to everyone in the game once a month.

T1Cybernetic · Apr 04, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

What's wrong with you people, You are given a no strings freebie and you still piss and moan about it!

All you have to do is signup/Login vote and be happy? If it is too much hard work having to vote then use the auto voting tool that zwei2stein provided

moriz · Apr 04, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

i have it on good authority that the majority of pvpers couldn't care less about money. the amount of gold it needs to run a pvp guild is pitiful; we could easily generate that gold by selling a few zkeys earned from daily ATs and balth factions. heck, even playing AB and selling amber/jade could generate the gold needed to run a guild.

basically, a lot of people here are pissing and moaning because they could no longer afford to buy something, because the XTH has temporarily driven up prices for those items. instead of simply accumulating more money and waiting for the prices to come down (and it will), they chose to cry about it here instead.